Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: We trust not knowing more than knowing. If you haven't heard of the two magic words that make improv work, they're called yes, we're actually going to co create together. We're going to collaborate, we're going to go somewhere new. If we're not sharing our thoughts, even if they're not fully cooked, we're giving everyone else permission to drive the ship.
[00:00:19] Speaker B: Hey there, billionaire. Yep, I'm talking to you. If you expect to live another 31 years, you're already a billionaire. Not in money, but in the real measure of wealth, time. That's because 31 years is roughly a billion seconds. But most of us waste time in ways we'd never waste money. The currency of time billionaires is micro moments. The 90 second to 15 minute gaps hidden between the structured parts of your day. This podcast is about reclaiming them with quick research backed ideas to help you feel more creative, productive and alive. Welcome to Time Billionaires. Let's make your next micro moment count.
Thanks for joining this episode of the Time Billionaires podcast. Our guest today is Holly Mandel. She has degrees in both psychology and sociology from ucla, but what makes her even more special is that she is a professor of improv. She trained in improv with some of the best actors in the industry at the Ground Leagues Theater in Los Angeles, which boasts alumni that have been on SNL and lots of other cast that you're familiar with. Thanks for joining us, Holly.
[00:01:33] Speaker A: Great to be here, Rebecca.
[00:01:35] Speaker B: So you and I have bonded over obviously both being Bruins, but I have dabbled nowhere near as extensively as you have in improv. Really? With the hopes that it would help me in business. I noticed that I was overthinking things a lot. And then my husband and I went to a show as a date night and I just sat in the audience thinking. You know who doesn't overthink things is improv actors, because they literally don't have time for it. I'd love to hear your approach to improv, how you think it helps, and really even how you got into it.
[00:02:06] Speaker A: You got it. And also, what a great date night.
That's a cool idea.
[00:02:10] Speaker B: It was fun.
[00:02:11] Speaker A: Yeah, improvisers are. We're weird in that we love not having a plan.
We trust not knowing more than knowing.
And we like to be prepared. You know, like we don't want to just walk into a situation without any. Without any plan. But we aren't married to that plan.
And we have developed a bunch of skills when we take improv classes that strengthen those instincts and those impulses.
And that's what my business actually is all about. I have a company called Emergence, which is founded on the principles of improv from. For exactly what you're saying. People who may not ever want to take a class, but know that there's probably a different way that they can show up, how they can show up at work, how they can show up at life. There's an overthinking that feels really bad, and it makes us neurotic or it makes us insecure.
And there's a different way to be. And improv is the most direct way to access it. So what our company does is it kind of hides improv in a really fun training session. And by the end, everyone goes, oh, my gosh, that one was. That's what improv was.
And it's like, yeah, it doesn't have to just be about performing comedy. It's actually a skill set that anyone can learn. And I say everyone should learn it.
[00:03:39] Speaker B: So for someone who doesn't want to take an improv class or workshop, you've coached executives at companies like PwC and IBM and Pfizer. But for someone listening who doesn't necessarily have access to a workshop, what is some of that mindset or mentality you think they can bring to their day to day?
[00:03:57] Speaker A: Yeah, great question.
Basically, it is being comfortable with being present and really listening and paying attention. If you haven't heard of the two magic words that make improv work, they're called yes and separately, they're great words. Together, they're magic. Because what yes and really shows is that you're looking for what you like. You're looking for what works, you're looking what feels good.
Oh, yeah, that thing you said. Ten things just now. But that one thing I really liked. I don't have to tell you about the nine things I didn't like. I'm gonna go, yeah, that's cool. Say more. The and is. I'm gonna build on that. So it's not a yeah, anyway, what I was saying, it's. Hey, I'm gonna leave my comfort zone. You're gonna leave your comfort zone. And we're actually gonna co create together. We're gonna collaborate. We're gon.
If I don't do that, I'm kind of hanging out in the area that I've known.
I know all the answers. I know the information. There's nothing new here. There's no innovation here. But improv allows us to both go somewhere new together. And the result is something brand new and that's what's so cool.
[00:05:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I think this is a really interesting principle that's very often misunderstood. I definitely misunderstood it at first.
Yes. And doesn't mean you never disagree or have a different point of view. It just means you don't deny the shared reality. So for conversation conversations, the framing of. I may disagree with your viewpoint, but I don't negate the reality you're operating in before I build on it is super important because different points of view or desires in a scene make it way more interesting. If there's no conflict, you don't have a scene. And in meetings. Right. It doesn't mean, yes, that's a good idea. When I don't think it is and listen to my idea, it means, yes, I hear where you're coming from. That is a problem that is a priority, and we have more pressing things at hand. And the way to solve it isn't through that way. That's something that I think is really important for the communication, is that we're building off of each other's shared reality, but we're not refraining from having conflict or a different point of view. And really, to your point, improv scenes and good communication are built on just noticing what's happening.
I like the saying that the person you're talking to isn't the one you're looking at. I think I got that from the book Crucial Conversations. And in the scene, to your point, we're building on the most important, interesting, promising tidbit of what someone is bringing.
Something that I did early on was I got the feedback. I did a lot of yes. Because instead of yes, and so that just doesn't really advance the scene forward. And I think that a lot of my weaknesses, really, if I had to just summarize my weaknesses as an improviser, they are my weaknesses in life.
And my improvisation coach gave me feedback at the end of a rehearsal session that literally dropped my jaw because he used the same words my therapist had used as what I needed to do to improve. To him, it was, take up space, be arrogant, be bold, you belong here. Therapist said the same thing. Take up space, be okay. Offending people.
Don't worry that you seem arrogant. You're not. So think you belong here. And I think that's one of the most powerful ways of being seen. Is that right? If an improvisation, we're noticing things. People you do improv with will notice things about you that maybe your best friends don't because they see you in a very different light. And so to that End of building connections.
Go ahead, please.
[00:07:36] Speaker A: Yeah, I love what you're saying. I. Sorry, I think there's a little delay.
Yes. What we often say, both, as I say as an improv teacher and as a corporate trainer, is we don't have to talk directly about the issues.
Everyone has issues, everyone has fears, everyone has sort of habits that they're kind of scared to let go of. And we don't have to ever address them because the beauty of improv is we're all heading towards this one zone. I call it the improv zone. And I'm actually writing a book about it called the Improv Zone, because it's really magical. It's a state.
It's a state of everything that you were just describing, where you're present and you're in a positive mindset. That doesn't mean you have to like everything that everyone says, but just listening as a yes ander, and that could be something somebody practices. Just practice listening with. I'm looking for the thing I like. I'm looking for the thing I can build on instead of I'm looking for the problem. I can't wait to jump in there and tell them why that's never going to work. I mean, just pay attention to even how you listen and show up. But the sweet spot, whatever, any person like yourself you just mentioned any. Your journey to get to being a real yes ander will reveal all the places that you are a little bit like, oh, yeah, I'm too polite. You know, women have this thing. As a female teacher to a lot of females, I see it everywhere. We know how to support.
We love saying yes, but we are very hesitant to bring our full selves. It's just unfortunately how things have worked out for us and how we're wired. But improv will gently force you to listen to your instincts go, well, here's my thought, here's my opinion. And you throw it in and you realize it's necessary. It's fuel to keep things going. If we're not sharing our thoughts, even if they're not fully cooked, we're giving everyone else permission to drive the ship.
[00:09:42] Speaker B: Oh, you're so right.
This is so fun. You're taking me back to when I first started. Things I had totally forgotten about, which I think is a sign of the growth that improv has driven for me. I was really hesitant to do something wrong that the people to join a scene. Right. If I was starting a scene, I was fine, but I felt like if there were one or two people on stage, if I were to join a scene and do something they didn't like, or bestow on their character a characteristic they didn't want or to say something, quote, wrong, because it was a paradox or something they had already said, or something they had envisioned that it would ruin everything. But the paradox is actually fun. If. If two people say something that is a different reality, figuring out how to make them both true is fun. And I find the same thing in business, right? Like, oh, what if I say something that the senior leaders find undermining or they don't like? But I am on the front lines interviewing customers, so I don't want to make the CMO look bad. But I have this key insight. Very much the same dynamic, but it really helped me with the wor case scenario. I find I've been speaking in my profession for over a decade, had no problem speaking in meetings and conferences, usually because I felt very prepared. I had a deck, I had my talking points. Maybe there were some Q and A, but it was five minutes at the end and it was kind of contained to topics I knew. And there was a pretty easy follow up.
I actually threw up before every rehearsal. For my first class, I like had to drag myself out of the car. I would usually be early and then spend like 15 minutes getting myself out of the car. And I finally just started getting myself out by saying, what's the worst that can happen?
I look stupid in front of 60 people. Okay, I can live with that.
[00:11:20] Speaker A: It's huge what you're saying. I mean, I still can hear the sound of my teacher coming up the stairs at the Groundlings and the panic that would just take over my body, even though it was my favorite thing to do. And I loved it.
It's stretching our comfort zones and it's being okay with not being perfect. And all of us, again, have a journey to this state. And for a lot of us, getting it right is really int.
And the beauty of improv is there actually is no right. And at first you go, oh, okay, that sounds good. But literally then you're swimming in a pool where there's no direction. And it can be very scary because you're like, where am I heading?
And then what you have to do is just drop down. And just where you are is exactly right. And then you. I don't know, to finish the analogy, you go, oh, there's a sandbar under my feet. Like, I don't have to go anywhere. But I think we're so used to, how do I get an A in this? How do I do this perfect. And that's showing up at work, and that's showing up at life, like you're saying. And the other piece that I'm guessing you experience this as well. You know, you realize that you're always part of a team.
And whether you know it or not, there's always a we.
And what happens a lot of times is we go, I gotta do great. I gotta hit a homerun. I gotta make an A. I gotta impress. And sometimes that's great, and sometimes it's not even true. Sometimes that insistence that you have to do well is at the expense of actually hitting the goal.
You're denying other people from joining you and joining the team. And so kind of this vulnerability has to come out that was very uncomfortable for me is like, oh, I don't have to do it all. Actually, I can't do it all. I can't. I shouldn't do it all.
And then to feel that you have a team with you at all times, that's everywhere. I mean, I get on the subway sometimes and I forget after teaching, I'm like, hey, we're all a week be.
It's just it. It permeates how you see everything.
[00:13:18] Speaker B: Oh, it's so true. It does. Yeah. I don't know how widespread this is, but at the theater here in Bellingham, we have this habit of before shows, putting a hand on your co player shoulders, saying, I have your back, I have your back. And you're reminding me of the Harvard Business Review research of what happens when you put a bunch of quote, A players on a team versus B players. And to make the long and short of, the analogy from the article that I read was that these A players tend to sort of peck each other to death. They're all trying to one up, show up. This is me, take the credit. And it erodes collaboration and the team that collaborates better. Even if each individual is not as smart, experienced, superstar, they perform better, they go farther, and they work together for longer because they trust each other and they collaborate and build on what each other does.
The scene that has someone trying to get a quick punchline laugh often ends at that punchline because there's nowhere really to go with that scene. And that's not more interesting for anyone else to watch.
[00:14:17] Speaker A: I tell people, like, go do stand up. You're not meant to. This is clearly not what you want to do. Yeah.
[00:14:21] Speaker B: Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. So if someone only has, let's say, five minutes to sort of think about incorporating the principles of improv into what we call micro moments. You see small gaps between the structured parts of your day where what do you think they should do with that small block of time to start making some of this progress?
[00:14:39] Speaker A: It's so hard to pick one thing, but I would say this.
[00:14:43] Speaker B: Go ahead, share a few.
[00:14:44] Speaker A: There's. There's a couple things.
I feel like people aren't really present a lot.
They're onto the next thing or they're beating themselves up for what just happened. And there's something about just being present.
There's some. There's a moment you can be yes. Anding. Oh, I'm stressed. Oh, I'm actually really excited about something. I haven't even let myself say that I'm excited for this. There is something where you can't move from any place other than where you are.
And I think when you're not clear on actually how you're feeling, you can even yes. And that. That is actually something to pay attention to. So I find that when I'm scattered and all over and a lot's happening and I'm not really present, which means I'm not going to hear what other people are doing. I'm not paying attention. I'm sort of trapped.
There's something about just yes anding what's going on. It brings me present again and then I feel like I can be focused. So that would be one thing. And then I would practice saying yes and and catch it in emails.
Am I writing yes, but how many times do I say the word but instead of and see what Listening to somebody and going I'm going to find one thing that I like that they're going to say I'm going to build on it and see what happens over time.
One thing that I have found is that the people that are seeing that you're yes and ing them will immediately like you more. They'll want to talk to you more. They feel trust with you so it can open up a lot of doors.
[00:16:16] Speaker B: So true. You're right. Yeah, that but and swap is some of the simplest but best communication advice I think I've heard. Even giving your team feedback. Right? Hey, you're really organized and reliable and I think you'd be more effective if we focused on your written communication is so much different than you're really organized and reliable. But I think we should focus on your written communication. You've almost negated with the but versus built on with the and yeah, I really like the. You can't move forward from any place other than where you Are there's both this undercurrent of radical acceptance to me, and you're reminding me of this advice I heard about the difference, right, between life and golf. In golf, you have to take your next swing from wherever your previous one landed. But in life, you can pick the ball up and move to the middle of the fairway and start again. And so acknowledging if you want a pivot, you may not be stuck right wherever you are is where you need to move from. But there's probably more than three options about how you move forward from there. I like this being fully present advice for that. And really, I think it sparks a lot more of that trust, to borrow your word and just creativity even. I think that the hyper vigilance that I had on stage and in life of always planning, preparing what's next? Am I ready to volley back what this person is queuing up? It's really stressful and it's distracting, and it gets in the way of meaningful connections and paradoxically makes me less likely to problem solve effectively. So I think you're right. The more we can practice just this unmitigated appreciation for that moment, ironically, the better the next moments become.
[00:17:57] Speaker A: Yeah. And without going down a whole nother rabbit hole, because I know we're. We're almost done.
[00:18:01] Speaker B: No, we'll take the rabbit hole. This will be two episodes. Go for it.
[00:18:05] Speaker A: Well, there's a lot of brain science behind improv, which I don't know if you've dabbled in, but I love. And what you're talking about is really key to why the result of taking improv is really important. The classes are fun if you want to take a class. But even just digging into what improv is and practicing it opens up a different BR wave. So there's a brain wave of fight and flight, freeze and fawn. We all know that. But it's a panicked, stressful brainwave. What more than just it doesn't feel good. It triggers something very different in our brains, and it makes our brains go, I don't have time to think about 98% of this stuff. I gotta survive. And it's probably left over from when there were, like, dinosaurs. I know we weren't there when there.
[00:18:50] Speaker B: Were dinosaurs or lizard brain. No, that's the science of it. As I understand it, We.
[00:18:54] Speaker A: We survived because we know how to get through those moments, and we just cut out extra. Well, the trouble is making a presentation to six people that, you know, triggers the same panic. And so what we're looking for are ways to remind ourselves that there's no need to be scared. As a matter of fact, this could be actually very exciting. But we have to let our brains understand that the unknown is great, it's not terrifying. And there's something called the negative bias, which a lot, I think a lot of people have heard when given an opportunity to go, is this unknown thing going to be great or awful? Two thirds of us are wired to go, it's going to be awful because that's protection.
But when you get into a yes and mode, your brain opens up new. Like you're saying about this creativity, you're aware of certain things. You will notice somebody in the corner is not paying attention or they're making this face and you're like, oh, they don't understand.
Or you feel shuffling in the room and you don't quite understand why and you know, no one's really paying attention. And it's because somebody dropped a thing and everyone's going to pick it up. And there's just an awareness that helps make you again more present. It'll make you more creative, it'll help you pivot, you'll be more flexible, you'll trust yourself more.
All these things are the result of getting into that, that mindset. So instead of going, oh, I have to pay attention to what people are doing, oh, I have to be willing to pivot, they're the result, which is much easier.
[00:20:21] Speaker B: You're so right. Yeah. That presentation to six people that, you know, example, and all of these survival evolutionary examples are reminding me that we have lots of cortisol spikes in our day to day environment, but not the same release that our ancestors would have.
I'm forgetting the author who wrote this that I initially read it from. But if you were being chased by some predator and then were safe in a tent somewhere with your tribe, you would relax and breathe and stop running and celebrate. But too often we go from that cortisol spike of a presentation with six people and directly into another meeting without any time to reflect, directly into school pickup. And this never ends. I was talking to a friend of mine who was working a 14 week sprint of 90, 95 hour weeks with this really intense project. And I asked her, what are you doing to reset? And she literally laughed because she hadn't thought about it. She's like, well, I'm resetting by working 60 hour weeks now. And that's just this unsustainable cycle that I think is really normalized alongside all of these other maladies that we then medicate because we don't have those same cortisol releases that play is so good for. But we didn't evolve for this cycle. We evolved for rhythms of cortisol and dopamine releases and spikes. And the negative bias that you hit on. Yeah. It is a survival instinct because if you think something is a threat and it isn't, you'll survive. If you think something isn't a threat and it is, you don't. And so. Right, exactly. I just think it's so important to realize that this is not socially construed as much as biologically construed in a lot of ways. And of course, human biology and human society didn't evolve in isolation from each other, something that society favors. It doesn't mean our biology doesn't and vice versa. But we don't have that same reset that our ancestors did. And I think that play or any kind of dopamine release is equally important for all those same reasons.
[00:22:22] Speaker A: I agree. I love this conversation. And I would also argue, not argue, add that over time, if we are able to access this higher mindset, the improv mindset, the yes and mindset, there's an ease that becomes default. It's almost like, you know, the neuropathways that get rewired in a way you're opening up new opportunities for yourself to respond differently. And I have felt over time, because I've been doing this a long time, I react differently than a lot of the people that are around me and I react differently than I did 20 years ago.
And so I think that's also part of what you're saying of these cycles.
If you can't control the external, you can't control these cycles. It's life. And then you put phones and what's happening in the world in there and forget about it.
You could at least control the internal and the internal could be your relationship to it all. And somehow it's like, oh no, I'm late for a meeting. Can become like, oh, late for a meeting. Shoot, okay, I'll get in there. And you show up different, you react different, your brain's going to operate different. You don't need that five minutes to calm down.
So I do think there are all these micro benefits that I didn't really notice had shifted in me until it became more normalized for me to have this kind of yes, and there's no problem mindset, even if it's not ideal, it doesn't mean it's a problem.
[00:24:01] Speaker B: Part two of this two part episode is coming to you next week.
Thanks for spending this micro moment with me. If you found it valuable, share it with a fellow time billionaire and give us a rating to help others discover the power of micro moments. For more ways to reclaim your time, check out timebillionaires.org and follow me. Rebecca Shattucks on LinkedIn. See you next time.
