Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: If it was simple, you would have solved it. Let's put it that way. Most everybody that has a desire to grow and make themselves better are intelligent enough that they can problem solve. So if you're not able to solve this problem, if it keeps happening, you need to expand your variables of what else is going into place here.
[00:00:17] Speaker B: Hey there, billionaire. Yep, I'm talking to you. If you expect to live another 31 years, you're already a billionaire. Not in money, but in the real measure of wealth, time. That's because 31 years is roughly a billion seconds. But most of us waste time in ways we'd never waste money. The currency of time billionaires is micro moments. The 90 second to 15 minute gaps hidden between the structured parts of your day. This podcast is about reclaiming them with quick, research backed ideas to help you feel more creative, productive and alive. Welcome to Time Billionaires. Let's make your next micro moment count.
[00:00:56] Speaker C: Our guest today is Mark Talaga, a licensed professional counselor, speaker, and founder of the center for Identity Potential. Specializing in gifted, twice exceptional and neurodivergent individuals, Mark helps families, educators and professionals better understand the unique challenges of intelligence, asynchronous development, motivation, and mental health. He's also the host of the Hopelessly Gifted podcast. Thanks for being here, Mark.
[00:01:21] Speaker A: Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
[00:01:23] Speaker C: I'm happy you're here. And when we've talked before, you introduced me to some concepts that I thought were really interesting around burnout. And for someone who spent so much time researching burnout, I thought your point that burnout's often caused by a series of executive functioning issues, each of which are different and have different solutions, was really interesting. So for people who identify with that maybe feeling signs of burnout, how can they identify which source of burnout is theirs?
[00:01:51] Speaker A: Right? And so what we look at is, is why is a person getting burned out, right? And it's typically they are facing some level of demand on their brain, that is they're just challenged to meet consistently and over and over again to the point where it's getting like, oh boy, I just, I'm burned out, I'm tired of this. And if we go even farther, we're looking at specific functions that the brain goes into, the executive functions that make it so that we can accomplish anything, right?
So to back up a little bit, executive functioning is the part of our brain that acts as the command center, right? How we get anything done, how we take something that's a thought and turn it into conscious action.
And that part of the brain is the very front of the brain called the prefrontal cortex. And the prefrontal cortex is the main part of the brain that houses those abilities.
And when I'm dealing with people that have burnout or that are struggling on some level consistently, what I'm really looking for is where in those executive functions, is there some sort of glitch or area where they're working a little too hard? Right.
And it can be a lot of different things because there's multiple executive functions. Right? There is the ability to initiate, there's the ability to sustain behavior, to keep doing the same thing over and over. There's prioritization, there's sequencing what goes first. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Right. You have emotional regulation. You have metacognition, the ability to process the process that you're in.
All these different things can be broken down into skill sets. And sometimes we don't have those skill sets on lock for whatever the task is. And if we don't realize that, if we're not aware of that, then we can be doing something over and over and over again and not realize how much it's draining us until we are burned out.
[00:03:46] Speaker C: So how do you decide which of these potential sources of burnout, the ones that you mentioned you're in? And then what do you recommend people do for something like if initiation is the struggle?
[00:03:56] Speaker A: Sure. Well, yeah, and that's what you got to know. You got to know what are the sub functions? What are the skill sets? And so, yeah, educating yourself on what executive functioning is is a good place to start because you could realize, like, oh, I'm, you know, I. I can always start things. I get it going, but I always seem to just, you know, let it peter out. Well, that's sustaining. That's keeping, you know, in track with something which is technically the hardest executive function there is.
[00:04:21] Speaker C: How can someone improve that if sustaining is their challenge?
[00:04:24] Speaker A: If sustaining is your challenge? Oh, boy.
That. That's probably one of the trickiest ones where you're. You're dealing with having to look at your process for how you're going into something where you are, A, managing expectations.
You are saying, how can I do this but do this long term and effectively?
B, you have to look at supports or lack of supports.
You're probably trying to do it too much on your own more than you think you can do it. You know what I mean? Like, a lot of people will be like, no, I can do it. I've done it last Tuesday, I was able to accomplish this task. And it's like, yeah, but you're supposed to do it every single Tuesday.
And doing it all by yourself has been a challenge. It's possible you need more support. Whether that's accountability, somebody helping you with part of the task. It's like breaking it down. Which part are you struggling with specifically? It can get pretty tricky. Initiation, on the other hand, is a little bit easier to regulate if you start to identify certain parts of your process of what it takes to initiate on a task.
[00:05:31] Speaker C: And so if, let's say someone does struggle with initiation, what's one thing you recommend that they do to get past that?
[00:05:39] Speaker A: So. Right. And there's a couple different things depending on the person's situation. Unfortunately, everything's very context driven. However, let's say, for example, you are struggling to initiate on, you know, doing something healthy for yourself. And you know you should do it. You look inward and purposefully. It's meant to be there for you. You want it, it's something you're interested in, but you just can't seem to get yourself through it. You got to assess a couple different variables. One, are we looking at?
I actually don't know how to do the task in front of me. It is something where, in my head, I kind of get it. I know what it's supposed to look like, more or less. But if I were to actually walk through step by step by step, there's a part in there that I would get caught up on that I actually don't know how to proceed. That sometimes is why people struggle with
[00:06:25] Speaker C: initiation, which can be hard to know sometimes. Just getting started, though, is how you'd uncover there's this next step. Yes, right.
[00:06:32] Speaker A: You gotta. It's right. It goes back on itself. You are correct.
[00:06:36] Speaker C: Yeah. And I think I'd imagine a lot of these are related. Emotional regulation can go into the shame spiral. That can make things feel heavier.
Where does forced priority ranking factor into this?
[00:06:46] Speaker A: So forced priority is a really good way when people are struggling to initiate on tasks because they feel like everything is urgent.
Right. So we look at all the things we have to do in our life, and this is again, where burnout can come in. I will have to do this and this and that, and I got to go pick up the kids and I got to take care of myself. And I also have to, you know, whatever it is and do my job. And if everything is marked urgent, your brain doesn't know what to do with that. And so what we try to help people do is create a priority list, prioritize what is really the Most important.
And for some people, that's just a very difficult thing to do. They're like, it's all important. I need to do all of it.
So I introduced the idea of doing a forced choice. If I give you two of these things, you tell me between the two of them, which one, even if it's a little bit, is more important.
And in that way they get more concrete and are forced to say, okay, technically, this one is more important if I'm really thinking about it. And from there you can do a little round robin tournament of all these tasks until you are left with a list where you have a top priority and a bottom priority. And then your brain can start to sequence. It can start to tap into the working memory that you need in the prefrontal cortex of how you're going to attach yourself to this task and how you're going to deal with it.
[00:08:05] Speaker C: Yeah, no, this is definitely relevant for individuals. I find myself sometimes in my micro moment saying, oh, really quickly, I can fire off this little task for my daughter's birthday party versus something that would be potentially more sustaining long term. But also on teams, I think a lot of the thrash that individual contributors can get thrust into is because their managers aren't willing to have that hard upfront decision of the forced priority ranking. So more tasks just keep getting layered and layered and layered from new meetings. And now the CEO said this, so now this is also on the list. And if our executive functioning as an individual or our functioning as leaders isn't forcing the prioritization, then we do end up in this. Nothing gets finished. Nothing gets finished. Well, and we're constantly busy. Spiral, can we.
[00:08:52] Speaker A: A hundred percent.
[00:08:53] Speaker C: Yeah. Can we do an example? So let's say I don't know, this is small enough, but I struggle with drinking enough water day to day. I have water on my desk. I actually have it in two forms. I have a glass of water and I have a bottle of water.
I would say it's important I have the triggers and the reminders here, but I don't think I do it. I still don't do it. So how would we unpack?
This is a priority for my health. Pretty easy to initiate because I can start sipping some water right here, but doesn't seem to persist. Sometimes I won't refill between meetings, for example, and then I'll sit with two empty containers on my desk. If I were to say if it's a priority for me to drink more water, what would you say I should do?
[00:09:32] Speaker A: Right, so you've created a priority for yourself. You're clear on it. And this is what I want to be doing. So now we have to walk through your process. Where does this task start to glitch out and fall apart? Right now, if it's in front of you and you have it next to you, probably pretty easy for you to just take a sip every now and again. And so on some level, what you're relying on is what we call external working memory. An external working memory is when we use the actual visual cue of something to remind us that it needs to be done.
And not everybody has this great ability to just remember to do things, especially people that are kind of all over the place or you know, split in a lot of different directions. And even if they created a priority list doesn't mean it actually happens. But what happens sometimes is if we find more external visual cues and like water bottles are placed at specific areas or done in a way where we know we're going to see it and be confronted with a reminder that this needs to get done, you're a little more likely to do it. So sometimes you have to ask yourself, am I a person that can just remember to do it or do I need that external cue or marker to help me stay connected to the task?
[00:10:45] Speaker C: Yeah, it sounds like sustaining would be my issue then by your right and
[00:10:49] Speaker A: right, right, you're sustaining that behavior in a long term way. But we're also looking at, here's what you can't do. Maybe this is a really clear, do not go that you are lazy. That is never the case. I've worked with too many families for too long where I have found every single time it is a skill set or a micro skill like sustaining that needs to be explored. And you need to go into your process of what it means for you to drink that water. And it can get complicated, but it is not, oh, I'm just forgetful or I'm just lazy. And if you can get rid of that, you're a little more outside of the shame and a little more to say, okay, let's treat this as a process that is not working effectively right now. What do I need to revisit that I might be missing? That makes us harder than it needs to be.
[00:11:36] Speaker C: Yeah. So let's say someone listening is identifying something for them that is a priority that they just can't seem to complete, or it hasn't yet become a habit. It could be getting enough exercise, enough sleep, not scrolling before bed. Any one of those examples, what's something you think people should do today to improve that.
[00:11:53] Speaker A: Well, what I would say is that you should really treat the problem as more complex than it is. So starting with number one, if it was simple, you would have solved it.
[00:12:03] Speaker C: Put it that way.
[00:12:04] Speaker A: Most everybody that has a desire to grow and make themselves better are. Are intelligent enough that they can problem solve. So if you're not able to solve this problem, if it keeps happening, you need to expand your variables of what else is going into place here. Right. Like if I can give you a quick story of like you, you remember the. The show, the Biggest Loser, the. The weight loss show. Right. So they did a retrospective on like the past like 13 winners or something. And, and you know, if I were to ask you to guess how many of those 13 kept the weight off consistently after they got home, what would your guess be?
[00:12:38] Speaker C: 60%.
[00:12:39] Speaker A: Maybe one.
One of them kept it. One of them out of the 13. So I don't the percentages of that, but one out of 13 kept it off. Okay. And so there's a reason for that. Because when they were on the show, they had structure and support and frameworks and everything you would need to accomplish a monumentally difficult task. But when you go home, you are back in all your old systems. You are friends with the same friends. Your pantry is full of the same things. You have to do a complete rework if you really want to keep that level of sustaining in your life. It's like creating a new identity, a new way of being. Right.
[00:13:17] Speaker C: Yeah. So this advice is interesting because it. It goes opposite to some things I've read, which is you said make it seem bigger than it is. So really think about the systems that are compromising your success. I've heard a lot of people say, imagine it's easier than you think. And I wonder if part of that advice is the initiating of what's the what if this was actually easier than I thought. Right. Because drinking water is not hard. I don't think I'm lazy because I don't drink water. It is a system of time to refill, remembering to refill when there's other things on my mind.
Of so if this task were easier than I thought. You're right. It's not actually helping me complete it because I haven't gotten there. If I were to then put structure around when do I refill and at what points in my day and being intentional, maybe even a calendar reminder until it becomes a habit. That is bigger than telling myself I just need to do it right.
[00:14:06] Speaker A: And I have never found it to be harder for people to to solve something when they introduce more complexity, meaning when they start to really uncover all the little things that get in the way. There is this idea that like, why am I making this such a big deal? Just go do the darn thing. And you're right, initiation is, is then a little bit easier. But if you're but most people are struggling not with getting started typically, but with sustaining.
And that is where you might need to broaden out your attempt. Or you might need to go bigger than you think, at least for a short term. Until, like you say, it starts to get a little more indelible. It's just, it's just part of your given nature.
And then, you know, after a certain amount of time, you might not be so reliant on all these extra things.
[00:14:51] Speaker B: Part two of this two part episode is coming to you next week.
Thanks for spending this micro moment with me. If you found it valuable, share it with a fellow time billionaire and give us a rating to help others discover the power of micro moments. For more ways to reclaim your time, check out timebillionaires.org and follow me. Rebecca Shattucks on LinkedIn. See you next time.
